What he said
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| Sharpening chisels http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4831 |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:23 pm ] |
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Hi I am AWEFUL at sharpening my chisels. I have tried the dry sandpaper technique and I am not very good at it. What do most of you do. Wet stones, grinders???? What works the best and will keep a good edge the longest?? Andy |
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| Author: | Joe V [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:50 pm ] |
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Andy, I sucked at sharpening until I got a Tormek. With it I can turn the cheapest chisel around into a deadly weapon. Works great on kitchen knifes too. I think the secret of the system are the jigs that hold the tool at the proper angle to the grinder. I just didn't have the patience to learn to sharpen with stones etc. They just never worked very well for me. Joe Volin |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:53 pm ] |
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Closeup pics so we can see what you have to work with? |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:57 pm ] |
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I second the Tormek. I'm sure the other methods work well but I was never skilled enough to get a great edge until I got a Tormek. It was a huge eye opener for me to see how well chisels and planes could work when properly sharpened. Good luck! John |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:58 pm ] |
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Mine were horrible too, until a nineteen year old violin maker showed me how to use wet and dry papers and a piece of glass and a little water. That was work but it pays off. Then, about a year ago, a leather worker mentions White Rouge and sharpening tools with a leather strop. I have a 1/4 inch piece by four by 12, clamp it to the workbench and start polishing using the rouge which comes in a tube like a big crayon. Rub a dub dub, then go to stroking. Before you know it, the sandpaper scratches begin to disappear, and the steel of the chisel begins to mirror up. When you get a mirror, you got a sharp chisel. White Rouge at ACE hardware, and probably an old belt, but a wider piece of smooth leather would be nice. Search the archives to see all the poop, under white rouge. |
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| Author: | Joe V [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:02 pm ] |
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John, That's the truth. I had no idea how badly my tools were sharpened until I started using the Tormek. Most tools need to be sharpened brand new right out of the box. Unless you get it right you don't have any idea how a sharp tool is suppose to work. I was sold on it after seeing it demo'd and have never regretted that purchase. Joe |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:05 pm ] |
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I have the Brian Burn's system like LMI sells and I also have a tormek. For 99.99% of jobs I like the tormek. But there are still a few things I sharpen by hand (for instance my miter chisel). I think the hand method is a little better, but not enough to justify the extra effort most of the time. However, once they are sharp I try hard to keep them sharp. A few strops every now and again let's you go a long time between sharpening... (an idea I picked up from Mario.) |
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| Author: | sfbrown [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:06 pm ] |
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Andy, I use a diamond grinding stone (flat) and then I hone and polish on a hard leather wheel on my grinder. I don't know if it's the best method but I can shave with my chisels! The diamond cuts quickly so you can go slow with light pressure and concentrate on angle. The leather is so fast I was amazed when I first used it. I'll never go back. Regards, Steve PS I forgot to mention that I used a polishing compound on the leather. Use it sparingly, it cuts at first and then polishes. It leaves a heck of a finish |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:08 pm ] |
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I'm not great at sharpening, but I've found that if you strop quite often with leather and compound then you rarely have to sharpen (given that you start out with a well-sharpened chisel). Like Bruce suggests, just make it conveniently placed to use it often while you work. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:21 pm ] |
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I am kinda archaic. I shape my chisel bevels on a belt sander, a 4 x 36 inch benchtop model. I sharpen by hand using water stones. My process is, from rough (I seldom go from rough as I try to never let my chisels get that dull!), bevel on the belt sander using 120 grit paper. The belt sander will stay cooler than a grinding wheel but you can still burn the edges of the chisel so apply light pressure and pay attention to the progress. Next I move to a 1000 grit water stone, honing the back of the chisel flat on the stone in circular motions, I then unconventionally hone the bevel edge by running it parallel to the long edge of the chisel, that is at 90 degrees to what most of have been taught. I then move to a 4000 grit stone using the same process on both sides and finally to a 8000 grit stone on both sides. I don't worry about how flat the stone is because I am constantly moving the chisel through all areas of the stones. I have been using this method for about 20 years after it was taught to me by a very accomplished woodworker who built high end furniture and was published in Fine Woodworking. It is very fast, very efficient with very good results. I use it on my 3 inch timber framing slicks, plane irons and 2 mm japanese chisels. Shane |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:43 pm ] |
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When that chisel becomes mirror reflective, something strange happens, it is sharp as a razor. I'd love a Tormek and know it is a superior sharpening system. Does it put a mirror finish on the chisel? I ask because mentally it means sharp. I guess if the mirroring didn't make it all the way to the chisel's cutting edge it would be meaningless. So, even though imperfectly ground, if it's mirrored to the edge, by golly that thing is sharp. I have an idea too, that since it is so mirrorlike along the angle, it's slick and slides through wood easier. Just one of those little ideas that may not be true, but seems true. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:08 pm ] |
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Call me archaic as well. I'm still sharpening by hand using the glass plate method and 220 through 2000 grit along with honing oil and a quality honing guide. My goal is to acieve and maintain a flat mirror finish on the back side as well as the bevel. About 2 years ago I decided to sharpen all of my chisels and plane irons using this method. It literally took me a weekend to set the bevels to the proper angle and square profile using lots of 220 grit paper that I changed often. 90% 0f the effort is put into this initial 220 work (thousands of strokes for each blade!). Once the bevel was established I moved on to 320, 400, 600, 1000 and 2000 grit (about 100 to 200 strokes for each grit). Then I put on a micro-bevel with 600, 1000 and 2000 grit and do a final strop with green honing compound on a leather strop. Once I got them tuned up like this, I just do as others have posted and strop it a few times to get it back to hyper-razor sharp. So now I only have to do the full treatment with new blades (or when I develop a chip. I've thought about getting a Tormak or Lee Valley sharpening system (Sylvan's favorite) but realistically, I feel that the glass system is as good as it gets for me right now. It's amazing how efficient my chisels and planes (with Hock blades) work when you take the extra effort to have the blades sharpened to this level. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:32 pm ] |
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When you use a tormek, what wheels do you use? Andy |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:36 pm ] |
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Also, for those that have a tormek, do you need any of the accesory kits that go with it or does it have enough jigs etc right out of the box for our use. |
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| Author: | Kelby [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:39 pm ] |
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Andy, The Tormek comes with a waterstone that you "re-grind" to change the grit as you sharpen. It's actually a very simple process. The Tormek is great (I have one and love it), but you should be able to get razor sharp chisels with the sandpaper method. Are you using a guide? If you describe your process, it shouldn't be hard to figure out what's going wrong. |
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| Author: | Joe V [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:47 pm ] |
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Andy, I use the wheels the Tormek comes with. One is a grinding wheel and the other is a leather strop. You can upgrade the grinder but I've never seen the need for it. The base unit doesn't come with much in the way of jigs. You can get various packages of jigs or just pick the ones you want. The packages give you a break on price, but only if you need what they include. I went with the woodturning package and only use about half of what it included. I'ld go ala carte if I could get a do over. Joe Volin |
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| Author: | Joe V [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:51 pm ] |
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Andy, I see that I didn't really address your question very well. Does the basic Tormek come with what you need. Probably yes if all you want to do is chisels. But, I do use a jig that have designed for chisels. I got the unit at the local Woodcraft store. The one in my area is pretty good about demonstating their tools. Probably any good woodworking store would do the same. I'd take one of your chisels and visit a store and ask them to demo it. Joe |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:55 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Dickey] I'd love a Tormek and know it is a superior sharpening system. Does it put a mirror finish on the chisel? [/QUOTE] Not only can I shave with it, but when I'm done I can look in the chisel to see if I missed any spots (no kidding). So, yes--the Tormek will make it like a mirror. I used to think people were kidding about the mirror shine, but the Tormek really does make it mirror sharp. Cheers! John |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:01 pm ] |
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Will the standard jig for chisels and planes work for small blades. For example I have some small fingerplanes and spokeshaves that have very short blades??? Do I need another jig?? Andy |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:53 pm ] |
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Andy, I use a combination of wet/dry sandpaper on plate glass (with water), water stones, and strop. I usually use a honing guide on the sandpaper and stones. Occasionally, if I'm resurrecting a really beat up tool, I'll do some grinding first on the belt sander. Like others, I am most often just touching up with the strop or a very fine stone then strop. If you're set on going electric, check out the review of different machines in a recent issue of Fine Woodworking magazine - I think it was issue #178. I forget which one they rated highest (the Veritas?), but it wasn't the Tormek. It might give you food for thought. |
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| Author: | John Watkins [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:27 pm ] |
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I use a very similar method to Todd's. Paul Woolson and I did a little expirement one day to see which method worked better; his Tormek or my sandpaper. I edged him out (pardon the pun) on sharpness, but marginally so. He may disagree; it was very close. But on speed, there was no question. Doing it by hand took about half the time. |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:38 pm ] |
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Hey John, welcome back. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:18 am ] |
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[QUOTE=azimmer1] Will the standard jig for chisels and planes work for small blades. For example I have some small fingerplanes and spokeshaves that have very short blades??? Do I need another jig?? Andy[/QUOTE] No the standard jig you get with the unit will do chisels and plane blades. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:25 am ] |
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it really doesn't take any special skill to sharpen to a "mirror", "shaving" edge by hand, so long as you use a honing guide, have suitable sharpening media, and read the directions. if you are so manually challenged that this is difficult i shudder to think how you will ever master the skills needed to build a guitar. did you say you were using the sandpaper dry? one reason for poor results. do you use a honing guide? if not, that is another reason. water stones, glass plate with wet and dry, etc. will all do the job. i prefer the water stones but glass and wet or dry is a cheaper way to get into sharpening well. and it doesn't take thousands of strokes per chisel if you work through the grades. and only the back of the blade and the cutting secondary micro bevel really need to be polished. finally. the time it will stay sharp depends not on the sharpening technique used but rather on the quality of the blade, how it is used, and what it is used on. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:32 am ] |
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What he said
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